Weird Studies/Joshua Ramey

23 Mar 2022 - 15 Mar 2025
Open in Logseq
    • Haven't done this one yet but it touches on theory of probability so probably should. (Also divination which is usually an insuperable barrier for me; we'll see)
    • This is one of those episodes that gets too far into the occult or religious for me. Plus there was what seemed like an utterly confused discussion of randomness and chance. I'll allow that maybe they mean something other than the concepts from actual probability and statistics, they seem to be getting at something like that – a divination is an act that depends on chance but is definitionally not meaningless, the outcome of the "chance" operation means something
    • Notes on Politics of Divination: Neoliberal Endgame and the Religion of Contingency

      • The argument is that neoliberal market fundamentalism—the view that markets alone can resolve the problem of how to construct social life in the face of unforeseeable contingencies—is a perverse and disavowed colonization of archaic divination rites, the rituals through which human cultures, on the basis of chance, have perennially sought for more-than-human knowledge.
      • Well, I share a skepticism of "neoliberalism", but this seems somewhat misguided.
      • As the philosophical father of neoliberalism, Friedrich Hayek was explicit that markets not only contained but were in fact constituted by uncertainty. And yet, appropriately constructed, markets were supposed to be forms of cosmic order so powerful they would overcome the inability of human beings to foresee the future. Aware of the looming contradiction that markets must somehow transcribe knowledge of the unknowable future, Hayek argued that only disciplined market actors could appropriately channel this order. By implication, those who knew the unknowable would prove it through success.
      • Might have to actually read Hayek to see if this is fair. As I understand it, he doesn't claim that the market has any magic way to "transcribe knowledge of the unknowable future", just that it reflects a composite of individual desires and judgements. The future is not knowable but neither is it completely unknowable, one can make predictions, place bets on the likelihood of particular futures. There's absolutely nothing magic or occult about this. (Plenty of other things to hate about neoliberalism)
    • I'm trying to guess at the common thread that links free markets (in their ideological aspect) with divination. They are both ways to engage with the unknowability of the future? But divination assumes a cosmic mind to which one hopes to get access, free markets are nothing but games, with no higher purpose than winning.
      • If they are the eternalist and nihilist versions of the same thing: what is that thing? And is there a complete version? (I'm adopting Meaningness jargon)
    • Relisten Nov 27th, 2022

      • PF: The party of academia: if you can't find the party, be the party. Podcast as an alternative form/institution of conversation.
      • Hypothesis formation in science is a form of divination – well ok, sort of? Not sure what that is supposed to imply. Divination as a good general model for knowledge formation. (Based on Deleuze and Meillassoux in some way). Contingency.
      • From the book:
        • Market expertise...has come to occupy an ancient and perennial place in human culture, the site where human cultures have, from time immemorial, practiced many forms of divination: procedures by which human beings attempt to access knowledge of the unknown.
        • OK if divination covers any attempt to gain knowledge...well that is uselessly broad. Maybe it is the opposite of Latourish construction, since it implies that the knowledge is out there to be divined, rather than assembled.
        • Huh, realized that under this definition, predictive AIs are basically divination engines. Wonder if they've discussed that.
        • This book is an invitation to challenge neoliberal claims for the superiority of markets as a mode of dealing with chance, and to suggest that there have always been and can be again less deadly and more creative ways to engage with the unknown.
      • The stuff about chance seems really wrongheaded and ignorant to me. Maybe I just don't get it or am too much of a materialist naturalist.
      • OK here JFM says something that at least makes sense (paraphrasing from around 34:30): modernism says randomness is epistemological, a function of our ignorance or inability to do perfect prediction. But that's different than classical ideas of chance which pointed to an open, nondetermined future.
        • Alright, that makes sense and does indeed capture the scientific view of randomness, more or less (quantum and chaos theory aside).
        • In the divinatory sense, what number comes up on a die means something ... (Because divination I guess, can't see a good justification beyhond that).
      • Chance as epistemic is not politically neutral.
      • Divination as somehow required by the structure of reality. No particular arguments for this, it's just something right-thinking folks are supposed to see.
      • abduction as a form of divination? Really? I guess it has something of the magical about it, like "emergence"
      • ref to The Blank Swan: The End of Probability: Ayache, Elie: 9780470725221: Amazon.com: Books which looks interesting (or maybe not, can't tell)
        • In this revolutionary book, Elie redefines the components of the technology needed to price and trade derivatives. Most importantly, and drawing on a long tradition of philosophy of the event, from Henri Bergson, to Gilles Deleuze, to Alain Badiou, and on a recent brand of philosophy of contingency, embodied by the speculative materialism of Quentin Meillassoux, Elie redefines the market itself against the common perceptions of orthodox financial theory, general equilibrium theory and the sociology of finance.
      • Divination should never take the place of basic empirical science – that sounds good.
      • (some attitude) is not ony wrong but suicidal (54:00)
      • JFM no such thing as unextended mind ... I thought he was a theist?
      • Peirce : all animals are applied scientists, and applied psychologists...astrology etc serve as suggestions for what those might be. OK had to track this one down:
        • These things do indeed show us how superficial our science still is; but its littleness is made even more manifest when we consider within how narrow a range all our inquiries have hitherto lain. The instincts con- nected with the need of nutrition have furnished all animalswith some virtual knowledge of space and of force, and made them applied physicists. The instincts connected with sexual reproduction have furnished all animals at all like ourselves with some virtual comprehension of the minds of other animals of their kind, so that they are applied psychists. Now not only our accom- plished science, but even our scientific questions have been pretty exclusively limited to the development of those two branches of natural knowledge. There may for aught we know be a thousand other kinds of relationship which have as much to do with connecting phenomena arid leading from one to another, as dynamical and social relationships have. Astrology, magic, ghosts, prophecies, serve as suggestions of what such relationships might be.
        • IOW the universe is more compicated ontologically than we know, justifying practices that go beyond the known...
        • Something bugging me here, not even sure what. It's the reliance on attacking a straw-man rationalism? "I am on the side that is creative and not narrow minded". Yeah OK, me too, so what, everybody thinks they are that.
      • The bit of magic, the fool, is always present...ok...always calling to us to acknowledge the more...
      • Ramey: I am a hyperrationalist, because I believe shamanic etc explore actual spaces. Space and force underlie modernity... against the vague and foggy notion of the unknown...its very specific (I'm dubious). Declaration of war between modernity (capitalist, patriarchal) and divinatory/shamanic/indigenous/female woo).
      • PF: Divination is something we always have at our dispoal, lets us take back what has been stolen from us.
      • Occupy and Practice Divination. Humor.
    • Another skim of book

      • Theories of divination from Vico, they are a source of legitimizing power.
      • I think he hates neoliberalism because it pretends to eschew the divine but locates the divinatory power in the unholy mechanisms of the market. OK, kind of get that.
      • Honestly he makes me feel a lot more pro-market than usual. My attitude to neoliberalism (which I know under the name libertarianism ) is also disdain, but mixed with a certain admiration for the elegance and power of its machinery.