Gregory Bateson

30 Oct 2021 - 30 Dec 2024
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    • If you allow purpose to organize that which comes under your conscious inspection, what you will get is a bag of tricks-some of them very valuable tricks. It is an extraordinary achievement that these tricks have been discovered; all that I don't argue. But still we do not know two-penn'orth, really, about the total network system.
    • But what worries me is the addition of modern technology to the old system. Today the purposes of consciousness are implemented by more and more effective machinery, transportation systems, airplanes, weaponry, medicine, pesticides, and so forth. Conscious purpose is now empowered to upset, the balances of the body, of society
    • He actually equates conscious purpose with the fall from Eden:
    • There was once a Garden. .... In that garden, there were two anthropoids who were more intelligent than the other animals.
    • On one of the trees there was a fruit, very high up, which the two apes were unable to reach: So they began to think. That was the mistake. They began to think purposively.
    • By and by, the he ape, whose name was Adam, went and got an empty box and put it under the tree and stepped on it, but he found he still couldn't reach the fruit. So he got another box and put it on top of the first. Then he climbed up on the two boxes and finally he got that apple.
    • Adam and Eve then became almost drunk with excitement. This was the way to do things. Make a plan, ABC and you get D.
    • They then began to specialize in doing things the planned way. In effect, they cast out from the Garden the concept of their own total systemic nature and of its total systemic nature.
    • Apparently the anarchist theorist Murray Bookchin was a big opponent of Bateson and cybernetics in general.
      • Nor is it helpful to recast the “systems view of life” into Gregory Bateson’s theoretical framework. Here, materiality is dissolved into interrelationships and then subjectivized as “minds” This framework might be somewhat comprehensible to an Eastern sage, but it divests substance, indeed nature itself, of its very physicality. Abandoning the study of things — living or not — for a study of the relationships between them is as one-sided and reductionist as abandoning the study of relationships for the things they interrelate. If traditional materialist mechanism strongly emphasized the object, often with results that inhibited speculation beyond the given state of affairs, Bateson’s emphasis on relationships verges on a subjectivism that could almost be taken for solipsism if one did not know more about Bateson’s work as a whole. The claim that “all experience is subjective” and that “our brains make the images that we think we ‘perceive’” borders on an idealist counterpart of Jacob Moleschott’s equally crude materialist maxim, “No thought without phosphorus.”60(https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/murray-bookchin-the-philosophy-of-social-ecology#fn60)
      • Don't quite understand this critique, seems to be a form of anti-reductionism? Seems to misunderstand Bateson entirely but maybe I'm wrong. Maybe its the anti-agency, rather passive view that cybernetic naturalism encourages (I am just guessing, I haven't had time to try to read this in detail). He is advocating "dialectical naturalism", sounds interesting. Something something Hegel
      • Unlike science’s limited objectivity, dialectical naturalism’s objectivity is ethical by its very nature, by virtue of the kind of society it identifies as rational, a society that is the actualization of humanity’s potentialities.99(https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/murray-bookchin-the-philosophy-of-social-ecology#fn99) It sublates science’s narrow objectivity to advance, by rational inferences drawn from the objective nature of human potentialities, a society that increasingly actualizes those potentialities. And it does so on the basis of what should be as the fulfillment of the rational, that is to say, on rational knowledge of the good and a conceptual congruence between the good and the socially rational that can be embodied in free institutions.
      • Hm, now it sounds like what rationalism would be if it was a little more left-wing.
      • Let's ask the all-knowing oracle
        • what was murray bookchin's objection to gregory bateson's theories?
        • Murray Bookchin, a social ecologist and libertarian socialist, had several objections to Gregory Bateson's theories, particularly regarding Bateson's views on systems theory and cybernetics. Here are some key points of contention:
        • 1. Technocratic Tendencies: Bookchin criticized Bateson for what he perceived as an overly technocratic approach to ecological and social issues. Bookchin believed that Bateson's reliance on systems theory and cybernetics could lead to a form of technocratic governance, where experts and technological systems dominate decision-making processes, potentially marginalizing human agency and democratic participation.
        • 2. Reductionism: Bookchin argued that Bateson's theories were overly reductionist. He believed that Bateson's emphasis on systems and feedback loops tended to reduce complex social and ecological phenomena to simplistic models, overlooking the nuanced and qualitative aspects of human and ecological interactions.
        • 3. Lack of Ethical Framework: Bookchin contended that Bateson's approach lacked a clear ethical and moral framework. While Bateson focused on the interconnectedness and interdependence of systems, Bookchin emphasized the need for an ethical perspective that prioritizes social justice, ecological sustainability, and human freedom.
        • 4. Ecological Determinism: Bookchin was wary of what he saw as Bateson's ecological determinism—the idea that ecological systems and their dynamics deterministically shape social and individual behaviors. Bookchin believed this view underestimated the role of human agency and the capacity for conscious, transformative action.
        • 5. Holism vs. Dialectical Approach: Bookchin advocated for a dialectical approach to understanding ecological and social issues, which emphasizes dynamic and reciprocal relationships between parts and wholes. He felt that Bateson's holistic approach, while recognizing interconnectedness, did not fully capture the dialectical interplay between different elements of a system.
        • In summary, while both Bookchin and Bateson shared concerns about ecological and social issues, their theoretical frameworks and underlying philosophies diverged significantly. Bookchin's objections centered around what he saw as Bateson's technocratic, reductionist, and ethically neutral stance, advocating instead for a more dialectical, ethical, and agency-centered approach to social ecology.
      • Huh yeah its an agency thing, I didn't prompt for that.