Lyons

14 Mar 2025 - 14 Mar 2025
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    • Vaguely fascist (or "national conservative") writer, beloved of some in WS/politics, related to UnHerd in some way.
    • American Strong Gods - by N.S. Lyons - The Upheaval
      • Largely based on Return of the Strong Gods Ebook by R. R. Reno | hoopla, published by Regnery so there's a warning flag right there. Oh and Reno is Editor of First Things R. R. Reno - Wikipedia
        • The violence that traumatized the West between 1914 and 1945 evoked a powerful, American-led response that was anti-fascist, anti-totalitarian, anti-colonialist, anti-imperialist, and anti-racist. These anti imperatives define the postwar era. Their aim is to dissolve the strong beliefs and powerful loyalties thought to have fueled the conflicts that convulsed the twentieth century.
        • By “strong gods,” I do not mean Thor and the other residents of the Old Norse Valhalla. The strong gods are the objects of men’s love and devotion, the sources of the passions and loyalties that unite societies. They can be timeless. Truth is a strong god that beckons us to the matrimony of assent. They can be traditional. King and country, insofar as they still arouse men’s patriotic ardor, are strong gods. The strong gods can take the forms of modern ideologies and charismatic leaders. The strong gods can be beneficent. Our constitutional piety treats the American Founding as a strong god worthy of our devotion. And they can be destructive. In the twentieth century, militarism, fascism, communism, racism, and anti-Semitism brought ruin.
        • More than a few commentators treat our crisis as an illusion, a consequence of momentary derangements or foreign conspiracies. Duped by charlatans, British voters failed to see the obvious benefits of EU membership. But for Putin’s machinations, Trump would not have won. But others see the crisis as real, the result of the economic changes that have broken the social contract established after World War II between labor and capital, or a response to unrestrained immigration. Some dig more deeply, identifying one or another spiritual malaise rooted in secularization and manifest in the low birthrates in Europe (and now in the United States as well), which bespeak a mentality that desires no future beyond the worldly self.
          • from ch 5. OK yes this fits the mold, people who are basically celebrating Trump etc because they hate the old order so much.
      • My summary
        • That's a very long-winded apologia for fascism. It's actually a pretty clear and straightforward piece of writing, but it boils down to: the author does not the liberal post WWII order of things, he doesn't like globalism and the values of the open society. He celebrates what Trump is doing, calling it "blitzkrieg ... unleashed on the permanent managerial state" and "seems to be the first administration serious about delivering on democratic demands for real change in American governance since FDR.". He celebrates things like "strong gods" which are opposed to the weak, wan, boring technocratic values of liberalism. He celebrates "a deep, suppressed thumotic desire for long-delayed action, to break free from the smothering lethargy imposed by proceduralist managerialism". That really sounds like something Mussolini would say. He thinks "Christian Nationalism" is actually OK, because both christianity and nationalism are "strong gods", that is, forms of traditional association that the liberal order is opposed to.
        • Forgive me, but that seems like a very long-winded way to say "fascism is good actually". Yes the old order is dying, we are at an inflection point to be sure. Yes the old order (liberal, modernist, globalist, technocratic) had its fair share of problems and many people were dissatisfied with it. The idea that Trump is going to establish something better, however, is not something that I can entertain for a microsecond.
        • The goal of him and his faction is precisely to undo everything about the current liberal order, from basic tolerance to scientific research to any kind of concept of universally shared humanity. The replacements this article talks about: the "strong gods" of christian nationalism, old-school imperialism, and "a deep, suppressed thumotic desire for long-delayed action", "affirming the elected Executive’s direct, personal control" – that is just fascism and we've seen it before. I suppose some people look forward to that; I do not.
          • ok that is sendable almost. Added:
        • I will say that the article, despite its length, is very clear about its message. It says (a) the liberal order has been overly oriented towards antifascism, which has produced a bland and boring world, and (b) we are now in a revolutionary moment where we can fix that (by embracing fascism, although he won't quite say that explicitly). Hitler too sought to replace the weak gods of modernity with the strong gods of ethnocentrism, nationalism, authoritarianism, vitalism, and action. How did that work out?
      • Annotations
        • Trump's rule is a "blitzkrieg ... unleashed on the permanent managerial state" "seems to be the first administration serious about delivering on democratic demands for real change in American governance since FDR."
          • A rather twisted formulation given that the goal of Trump's movement is to undo basically verything that FDR and his followers have done in the last 80-odd years – that is what "the permanent managerial state" just is. But maybe that's just what me means. He obviously feels very positive about Trump's actions.
          • Can anyone seriously characterize Trump's rule as "delivering on democratic demands"?
        • Trump represents the end of the "Long Twentieth Century". I actually have no problem with that. Certainly it feels like a point of disjuntion, of an old order collapsing. However, the writer seems to think this is a good thing, whereas to anyone with a shred of human decency it's obviously a catastrophe.
          • The spirit of the Long Twentieth could not be more different from that which preceded it. In the wake of the horrors inflicted by WWII, the leadership classes of America and Europe understandably made “never again” the core of their ideational universe. They collectively resolved that fascism, war, and genocide must never again be allowed to threaten humanity. But this resolution, as reasonable and well-meaning as it seemed at the time, soon became an all-consuming obsession with negation.
          • Translation: oh come on, fascism is not that bad, we can have a little, as a treat.
          • Hugely influential liberal thinkers like Karl Popper and Theodor Adorno helped convince an ideologically amenable post-war establishment that the fundamental source of authoritarianism and conflict in the world was the “closed society.” Such a society is marked by what Reno dubs “strong gods”: strong beliefs and strong truth claims, strong moral codes, strong relational bonds, strong communal identities and connections to place and past – ultimately, all those “objects of men’s love and devotion, the sources of the passions and loyalties that unite societies.”
          • I suspect this is distorting what Popper meant by "open society", which does certainly not opposed to strong moral codes.
          • Meaningful bonds of faith, family, and above all the nation were now seen as suspect, as alarmingly retrograde temptations to fascism.
          • Like, seen by who? This is just complete horseshit.
          • The great project of post-war establishment liberalism became to tear down the walls of the closed society and banish its gods forever. To be erected on its salted ground was an idyllic but exceptionally vague vision of an “open society” animated by peaceable weak gods of tolerance, doubt, dialogue, equality, and consumer comfort.
          • Look if you are anti-liberal just come out and say so.
          • The anti-fascism of the twentieth century morphed into a great crusade – characterized, ironically, by a fiery zeal and fierce intolerance.
          • You know who complains about anti-fascist zeal?
          • By making “never again” its ultimate priority, the ideology of the open society put a summum malum (greatest evil) at its core rather than any *summum bonum *(highest good). The singular figure of Hitler didn’t just lurk in the back of the 20th century mind; he dominated its subconscious, becoming a sort of secular Satan, forever threatening to tempt mankind into new wickedness
          • There's something to this, but it also Nazi apologetics.
          • If it’s assumed that the only options are “the open society or Auschwitz” then maintaining zero tolerance for the perceived values of the closed society is functionally a moral commandment
          • Yep! And it still is, despite this guys whining about it.
          • If you’ve been wondering why USAID was spending $1.5 million to advance DEI in Serbian workplaces, $500,000 to “expand atheism” in Nepal, or $7.9 million to catechize Sri Lankan journalists in avoiding “binary-gendered language,”
          • Horseshit, see links above
          • As Carl Schmitt noted early in the twentieth century, an “elemental impulse” of liberalism is “neutralization” and “depoliticization” of the political – that is, the attempt to remove all fundamental contention from politics out of fear of conflict, shrinking “politics” to mere managerial administration.
          • Gah too long and tedious, do some real work
          • Today’s populism is more than just a reaction against decades of elite betrayal and terrible governance (though it is that too); it is a deep, suppressed thumotic desire for long-delayed action, to break free from the smothering lethargy imposed by proceduralist managerialism
          • This is exactly the animating spirit of fascism.
          • Trump’s behavior here actually appears to be quite straightforward: he is willing to use American might however may benefit the nation, rather than caring very much about protecting the status quo liberal international order for its own sake or adhering to polite fictions like international law.
          • Does anybody believe this?
          • Note, for example, the appearance of increasingly panicked admonitions (in between or in haphazard fusion with accusations of fascism) about the imminent danger of “Christian Nationalism.” This is a term that welds together two strong gods – nationalism and religion – and so is a particularly triggering phantom
          • Uh yep!
          • Now the strong gods are nonetheless being haphazardly called back into the world as the vitalistic neo-romanticism of our revolutionary moment of reformation tears down the decaying walls and guard towers of the open society. Their return brings real risks, or course – although the return of risk is kind of the point
            • Comments
              • One could say that Hitler had good intentions--no matter how evil and destructive--since he and his fellow Nazis were advocating for their own people--Germans, Nordics, etc
                • – William Markley
    • Love of a Nation - by N.S. Lyons - The Upheaval
      • I'm a little confused by the role of J D Vance, linked to at the very end of this article. Vance is a well-known fan and confidant of Curtis Yarvin, who explicitly recommends getting rid of what little spirit of national love and solidarity we might have and replacing it with a pure corporate ownership system, where a CEO/king treats the country and its citizens as his property, to be managed fully and solely as economic resources. This is the polar opposite of viewing a nation as a family bound by love. Which of these visions do you think is actually operative in the current regime?
        • Oh damn you have to pay to comment, so much for that. Could restack but why bother
      • The thesis is that nations run on love, and corporatists and bureaucrats just don't have enough of that stuff.
      • Vivek Ramawamy was too corporatist, offended "Trump's populist-nationalist" base (the true hero of these fables) and was exiled.
      • The corporate machine views employees merely as interchangeable human resources, to whom it owes no loyalty. Indeed, if it is to effectively devote itself to profit maximization the company can afford no permanent relational bonds with any of those who work for it, as it must be able to fire or replace them based on cold utilitarian calculus
      • Unlike a corporation, a nation really is much like a family. And, like a family, it is characterized by strong relational bonds that are covenantal, not contractual. It establishes moral obligations of solidarity and subsidiarity that cannot be simply abandoned.
      • Well no. A nation is nothing like a family, although yes it is true is different from a corporation or contractual business relationship.
      • Much as we naturally would, and should, put our own children’s lives and wellbeing ahead of others’, a nation is obligated to distinguish its own from others and to put the wellbeing of its own first.
      • Ah here comes the racist/fascist turn, smooth as butter this guy is.
      • Yet, at least among our ruling classes, this natural reciprocal love between citizen and nation, which sustains our countries and our societies, seems to have long since frayed.
      • This goes back to his earlier Strong Gods essay. This seems like pure horseshit to me. Guess that's not an argument.
      • The philosopher Karl Popper, in his sweepingly influential 1945 book The Open Society and Its Enemies, denounced the idea of national community writ large, labeling it disastrous “anti-humanitarian propaganda” and smearing anyone who cherished his particular homeland and history as a “racialist.”
      • I wonder if that is a fair characterization of Popper. I suspect not. Claude:
        • Reno's characterization of Karl Popper's views on nationalism and community is considerably oversimplified and arguably misrepresents Popper's actual position. Popper did critique certain forms of nationalism in "The Open Society and Its Enemies" (1945), but his views were more nuanced than Reno suggests:
        • Popper primarily criticized what he called "closed society" tribalism and excessive nationalism that demanded unquestioning loyalty and rejected critical thinking. He was particularly concerned with totalitarian ideologies that used nationalist fervor to suppress dissent.
        • Popper did not denounce all forms of national community or patriotism. He distinguished between:
          • Extreme nationalism that claims inherent superiority of one's nation
          • More moderate forms of patriotism and national identity
        • The term "anti-humanitarian propaganda" was used by Popper specifically to describe totalitarian nationalism that dehumanized outsiders, not all expressions of national feeling.
        • Popper did not label everyone who cherished their homeland as a "racialist." He criticized specific forms of racial nationalism that claimed biological superiority of certain groups.
        • As an Austrian exile from Nazism, Popper was responding to how nationalist ideologies had been weaponized in his lifetime. His concerns were primarily about how uncritical nationalism could lead to authoritarianism, not about modest forms of national attachment. It's worth noting that Popper himself maintained connections to his Austrian heritage and wasn't opposed to cultural identity per se, but rather to forms of nationalism that rejected critical thinking and individual rights. Reno's characterization appears to flatten these nuances to strengthen his argument about postwar liberalism's rejection of community bonds.
      • With Hitler having firmly established himself as the summum malum of the post-war order, the liberal establishment embarked
      • Man does this guy want to be allowed to be just a wee bit Nazi.